>Dogboy99: Was this a special one-time exception because Newegg was getting bad press?
>Newegg: [Yes]
Hilarious. Is the left hand not talking to the right or what?
From the consumerist's first followup:
>Thanks, Newegg, and let's hope that no one has to get out the Internet pitchforks and torches to get your employees to follow their own policies from here out.
Although it's not the most efficient way to go about getting things done, the internet pitchforks appear to be fairly effective when it comes to business. Next on the agenda is politics.
I'm sorry, but what exactly do you think happens when you return something to a retailer? They wave a magic wand and everything is peachy?
Like most retailers, NewEgg has to resell the unit. Just because you think there's something wrong with it, doesn't mean there is something wrong with it. I ran my own consumer electronics retail business for 5 years and about 70% of returns have absolutely nothing wrong with them. NewEgg can't just throw the stuff away, they'd go out of business.
They also can't just send the stuff to the manufacturer. The manufacturer doesn't care about your issues and if you return stock of which 70% is functional for warranty service, they will kick your ass.
So you hire guys to test the equipment and return it to sell-able condition and sell it as an open-box return.
Back to our little problem. You bought a laptop. Great! You install Linux on it. Fine! Is it really that much trouble to return it to the same condition when you send it back?
NewEgg has to hire guys who sit there for hours installing Windows from the non-existent install disks (they don't include those anymore ... you gotta download them) so that they can recoup their losses? It would cost them more than the laptop is worth.
If the laptop is truly defective, and you can't install the original operating system as a consequence, NewEgg has no quick means of determining what you did with the system ... and the manufacturer won't care either.
So if you buy a laptop and decide to return it, return it to factory condition. It's the least you can do. Yes, tinkering with it probably violated some terms or some warranty. Do everybody a favor and keep it to yourself.
> NewEgg has to hire guys who sit there for hours installing Windows from the non-existent install disks (...)
Your argument hinges on the assumption the retailer is somehow `entitled' to being profitable, and consumers' rights come second.
Turns out consumer protection is not optional for a retailer. Whether they can stay afloat or not in the face of returns is up to them.
And I believe they well can stay in the black, given that:
* `installation' of Windows from a harddrive image is quick, low-tech and mostly hands-off process,
* as a major retailer they enjoy strong negotiating position with Microsoft or OEM for obtaining said images,
* if they really can't be bothered with the harddrive images, shipping the device to OEM for the work is cheap anyway, given they certainly exchange significant volume of cargo with 'em.
EDIT:
It does not make sense for the whole company to reject valid claims and be on the receiving end of geeks' anger. If I were to guess, the whole matter at Newegg was probably caused by some mid-level manager desperatly wanting good metrics -- like `valid customer complaints per thousand units sold' -- for his or her department. Just a case of misalligned incentives.
Nobody's entitled to anything. Newegg will do whatever they need to balance consumer happiness with their profit margins, and, if they can swing it, that'll include what you want.
This is sorta true, but it's not laws as such that accomplish it. It's actually the existence of any institutions that guide the behavior of people, whether they are just social traditions, or religions, or laws.
For example, I've found that in China, people don't tend to line up for the bus. When it's coming, people just crowd around, and so the pushiest person is the one who gets the best seat. We don't have this problem in the US, but it's not a law that solves it for us. It's because our culture has inculcated into us the idea that each person should wait his turn.
Conversely, the imposition of a law doesn't necessarily "fix" the problem behaviors. For any law to work, people must accept its legitimacy and be willing to abide by it. And there's a bit of a Catch-22 at work there, because when everyone is breaking the law, an individual will see that on an individual basis, his compliance puts him at a disadvantage.
There's actually been a good deal of research, especially by Bill Easterly [1], examining what institutions tend to make some cultures thrive, while others languish in poverty.
If this is the state of things, it needs to change.
When I return a computer, the disk needs to be re-imaged no matter what operating system it boots to. Otherwise, they have no way of knowing that I didn't get all sorts of malware before returning the system. You're selling the next customer a potentially dangerous system that could get them into all sorts of liability if they handle financial information. In what world is that acceptable?
If you buy a laptop, you're not returning it because there's something wrong with the software. You're returning it because there's something wrong with the hardware.
If you bought a phone with a defective battery, would you delete all of your contacts out of it and image the OS before you returned it?
If you're asking consumers to do something to preserve your margins, go fuck yourself.
> If you buy a laptop, you're not returning it because there's something wrong with the software.
Sometimes it's not easy to tell if you're having a software or hardware problems. Especially for your average customer.
If my mom gets a "No Operating System" message on boot she won't spend time trying to figure out if the disk died or something overwrote the boot sector.
That's you though. A shocking number of people buy stuff, get bored after a couple of days, send it back claiming a non-existent fault, and fully expect to get a refund.
That's right. And this is why we have a class of businesses called "retailers" whose function it is to absorb and amortize that risk. If you don't want to sell to the hoi polloi (edit: typo), don't: sell wholesale instead (you just won't get the same markup).
> If the laptop is truly defective, and you can't install the original operating system as a consequence, NewEgg has no quick means of determining what you did with the system ... and the manufacturer won't care either.
Or they could do what the user did and boot to Windows via USB/Disk, which (correct me if I'm wrong) shouldn't take much more time than booting to HDD. They are a huge online electronics retailer; is it really too much to ask that they have basic debugging/testing tools on hand?
If the retailer sold a defective product, the burden is on the retailer to test & fix the issue. Unless newegg has no way to reasonably test the system (claiming this would be absurd IMO), it is their responsibility to test it and see that it works. If you ship a broken product then refuse to fix it and wag your finger at the user for using it, that is bad business and it's rude.
My question: Does installing Linux really make it impossible to test the hardware without it costing "more than the laptop is worth"? Is it not possible to boot to disk or USB and run some hardware tests?
Newegg's stance could be reasonable if they disclosed it sensibly: "At Newegg you get the best prices for hardware and 'no-frills' service. We get you these low prices by streamlining our business processes ... including testing of returns. If you wish to take advantage of our 'no-frills' service, please leave the OEM OS on your laptop: supporting user installed OS costs more so if you install your own OS, be prepared to support the hardware yourself." Or something like that. A case could be made that servicing the 80% could result in a desirable reduction in retail prices that is good for the consumer. But then I wonder what the 80% on Newegg really looks like- what portion of their users is really keeping Windows on their boxes?
That is a horrible argument. The distributor should absolutely not assume hardware is in factory condition because it looks like it. They should (at a minimum) be re-imaging the hard disk before sending it to another customer if it has Windows on it or not.
> NewEgg has to hire guys who sit there for hours installing Windows from the non-existent install disks (they don't include those anymore ... you gotta download them) so that they can recoup their losses? It would cost them more than the laptop is worth.
Do you know what an answer file is? They PXE boot it and walk away. There's no more oversight involved. We're deploying hundreds of new tablets and laptops at my work and I've been tasked with imaging every single one of them. The extent of my involvement is me pressing F12 during the POST. It's not as much work as you may think.
While I understand the economics of your argument, are you suggesting that NewEgg would resale a returned machine without wiping it and re-setting it up?
That would be a horrid security practice and open them up to liability lawsuits. I'm assuming they are smarter than that, in which case, wiping it is wiping it.
I understand what you're saying but if I have configured a Windows system and loaded my own files onto a system that I have purchased, I will most certainly wipe the disk if possible before returning it for warranty service/replacement. Yes, that may make determining if it's a NFF situation more difficult but you certainly can't expect customers to return systems with personal intact. (Although many will if they have no easy way of wiping the disk after a failure.)
I think you're right. The problem is they need to update their policy to say you can't change the OS.
On the other hand, If someone has logged into the machine at all the software has been changed and they can't simply resell it; it would seem they'd have to reinstall the OS regardless.
I'm pretty sure most of this is misinformation. Having worked in retail before, there are defined and accepted processes about how returns are handled. For my employer (who was MUCH smaller than NewEgg), we had what was called a "Return To Vendor"(RTV) process (actually, there is an entire industry around this).
We/someone would simply fill out some paperwork describing the problem(s) and the vendor/manufacturer would credit either fully, or some percentage, of the cost - including little plastic items, machined items, chemicals, etc. (there are exceptions, not literally _everything_). The cost to my employer was administrative overhead. There is no reason NewEgg should have to hire people to test all returned equipment (that should be outsourced to refurbishment/remanufacturing firms).
So, NewEgg is not stuck here with no options, and a little good will can go a long way.
Yes, but they haven't updated their policy and after the initial kerfluffle, the told the Consumerist that it was a mistake and that it was not their policy to refuse such returns.
They're trying to have their cake and eat it too.
Also, as others have pointed out, all they need is a disk image. They don't need to reinstall the OS by hand.
Question: Do these laptops that NewEgg sell have a hidden restore partition like most laptops do these days? I think these are normally accessible via some F-key setting on bios startup... so not very difficult unless you have deleted this as well...
Man, I hope those restore partitions get wiped before resale too, otherwise I don't see what's stopping me from hardwiring my malware right into those.
Considering that most Windows machines ship with MBR-partitioned disks, which limit you to 4 primary partitions each, it is not difficult to imagine somebody nuking the whole partition table before setting up. I prefer GPT to logical partitions, so in my case the restore partition would be gone anyway.
It doesn't really matter whether you installed a different OS on it though, they're going to need to wipe and restore the machine anyway. I imagine most laptop buyers aren't going to want a laptop full of someone else's porn and malware.
I'd imagine you just have a standard HDD disk image and when you re-furb a machine you just clone that onto the disk and then change the product key.
Don't return a system that you've actually used and put data
on without secure wiping it, and if you're a retailer
don't pass on somone elses malware-ridden child pornography containing worm box to an unsuspecting
customer.
"Please be kindly advised that if the item system has been changed or modified, we are unable to honor you a return and you will need to contact the manufacturer for further assistance."
It's hard to know if "the item system" refers to the OS or hardware…
What do they mean modified? Updating an OS is modifying it. Adding more software is modifying it, reg gets changed. Turning it on and adding a password is modifying it.
"Your display is broken? Oh, you installed cygwin? Sorry, you're on your own: we don't support cygwin"
Mostly joking but how far fetched is it to speculate such a thing, given that they are denying display service due to OS install? bittorrent clients can be quite hard on HDDs, I've heard, furthermore illegal torrents are purportedly full of malware which could "damage your computer"; can they reject a defective HDD claim if you have uTorrent installed?
Heh, wasn't THAT long ago that setting up your CRT monitor for Linux involved a lot of scary stuff about using invalid frequencies that could cause damage.
Only relevant on exceptionally old and broken hardware. Any decent CRT or LCD provides http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDID which lists both standard and non-standard modelines and frequency range. X.org takes that into account, unless you override it by hand. Also, the display will shut itself down if driven over threshold.
On the other hand, any software will happily let bad hardware kill itself, if not customized for particular hardware kink. I had a Linux apparently kill a 2.5'' HDD. Turns out OEM configured the drive to unload heads very often, probably to produce impressive power savings -_-'
After about one or two years constantly power-on, the drive accumulated its rated number (~500'000) of unloads and died.
You know, in "dumb punter" mode, I don't care what the small print says and what the fine arguments are. As a punter, if my machine brakes, I want it replaced or fixed, not a legal mumbo jumbo debate. When I buy a PC, I don't want to need a lawyer with me. Basically, it's too much thinking and grief for something so, so simple. Whatever the savings might be, it's simply not worth it.
It's a terribly confusing universe these days, and boycotts must depend on the position of the moon. Wasn't that long ago that people wanted to boycott Amazon for doing their silly one-click patent. Or their 1984 Kindle book deletion thing. I'd take a break from HN and go play Diablo III, but alas, I'm supposed to boycott that too because of the bnetd snafu.
Instead, I maintain a much simpler lifestyle by ordering from whatever place gives me a reasonable price and good service, regardless of other people's experiences.
Both Amazon and New Egg have offered me excellent service in the past, and I will continue to use both.
Normally I'd say it's difficult for the retailer to support enthusiast needs like this. It can just be too costly. For example, maybe their return inspection policy is to run some Windows test software or something and it would have to be rewritten to multi-platform, or all their inspectors would have to spend time learning how to and reinstalling Windows, etc..
Push them too hard and they will run away from Linux crying due to the higher costs for few sales, like some sellers of hardware with Linux out of the box have done, or competitors not footing the bill will beat them out. It is a very low margin business where just having the automatic conveyor belts to put bins near where the parts have to be picked off the shelves helps immensely.
Newegg sells a ton of components to enthusiasts and small time computer shops upgrading and building their machines part by part, however. I think they'd be better off with a more lax policy regarding OS installs considering their customer base.
>For example, maybe their return inspection policy is to run some Windows test software or something
Why would anyone run that on the user's OS?? If the point is to test the hardware, wouldn't it make more sense to have a custom USB stick OS that automatically runs the appropriate diagnostics after booting?
What's easier: 1) plug in USB stick, power on machine, move on, or 2) power on machine, wait for OS to load, plug in USB stick, install diagnostic software, start diagnostics, which may or may not reflect actual hardware problems since you don't have a known-good OS under you?
RMAs typically don't troubleshoot software. Even Apple's hardware return people will only offer to wipe your drive and reinstall (you did back up before sending it in, didn't you?)
> For example, maybe their return inspection policy is to run some Windows test software or something
I've heard this trotted out before, but it's unequivocally wrong. You just don't test hardware from inside the installed OS.
First, that introduces too many variables: how do you clearly disambiguate between hardware issues and software problems? You'd have to install an entire suite of verified-good drivers to make sure you're starting from a known point.
Second, how do you get into that OS in the first place? Many corporate (and plenty of prosumer) systems will have BitLocker enabled, and few of those customers will be keen on giving up their admin passwords to NewEgg or any other third party. Some systems will boot directly into an unlocked desktop, sure, but I'd bet good money that NewEgg has received more returned computers with encrypted Windows installations than Linux installations.
"We need to run tests under Windows" just isn't a legitimate excuse, unless they're also requiring Windows users to return pristine systems that have never had OS updates, new drivers, or applications installed.
I think most of us would be ok if they had a policy of not supporting Linux returns and they were up front about it. But if they don't support Linux returns but claim to potential customers that they do support them then, well, that's problematic.
"For example, maybe their return inspection policy is to run some Windows test software or something and it would have to be rewritten to multi-platform, or all their inspectors would have to spend time learning how to and reinstalling Windows, etc.."
The real issue for NewEgg is probably whether you've blown away the Windows restore partition. Without that, it's probably going to get rejected by their reverse logistics vendor.
This shouldn't be the customers problem, but for them it would be as if a hotel guest took all the sheets off the bed every morning and soaked them in the bathtub - enough people do that, you're going to have to hire extra maids.
I had a Lenovo system from Fry's that I couldn't install NT on. In the process of trying to get the install to work, I managed to wipe the restore partition.
They wouldn't take it back. "How can we re-sell this?"
"It's broken. You can't."
"We can't put this back on the shelf without the restore partition."
I called my credit card company in front of them and had the charges reversed. "Have fun, boys."
I'm sure that some poor sucker got that machine, DOA, and returned it again, with the same hassle.
The original laptop in question was a Thinkpad. Thinkpads have restore disks. I always install my own OS and then use the restore disks to restore the system to its original purchased condition by using the restore disks.
I think most brands work this way.
With my Mac Air I have a Bootcamp dual boot with both OSX and Windows 7. One can restore Macs also to their original software installed status.
Although restore disks are great it might be prudent to buy an additional disk drive and store the stock one away until time comes for RMA or otherwise.
This way the condition of the laptop cannot be so easily disputed.
And just yesterday the story here had tons of people insisting that this was no big deal, just a one time mistake, and that they should shut up and be happy. This is exactly why I didn't consider their initial reaction to be an acceptable resolution. They need to make it 100% clear that you can install whatever OS you want, and they need to make it 100% clear that they are going to train their staff to know their own policies.
1. The original post had a couple of people who experienced Linux drivers throwing the thermal control systems of the laptop in a loop, and damaging it.
2. Was there anything wrong with the laptop (70% of returns work perfectly)? If not, and it is returned in a non-original condition, why the hell would Newegg (who's margins are 1%) accept it and take a loss on it.
Again, Newegg makes 1 dollar for every $100 sold, this is the lowest margin in the industry, and is why their prices are cheap...
They simply can't cover people burning out their laptops with bad drivers, or accept working laptops with a missing OS, that might or might not have been partially damaged.
They also can't cover people buying a laptop simply to see if Linux runs on it, knowing they can just ship it back. They probably don't want that type of business.
Following the previous story, they explicitly stated that OS installs didn't prevent returns
"Newegg's Computer Standard Return Policy does not exclude a computer from being accepted for return if an operating system is modified or installed."
It's one thing if they had a clear policy against installing Linux. I'd probably think twice about buying a new computer from them, but it's their call.
If that is their policy, however, then they need to make up their minds and be consistent in what they tell people.
Where is this 1% figure coming from? Having worked for a competitor, I would not have been surprised at a 3-5% figure (closer to 5% when considering the margin gain on shipping charges).
1. If the laptop was damaged because of the user's actions, then that should be their reason for rejecting the RMA. Not "you installed an operating system".
2. If there was nothing wrong with the laptop, then that should be their reason for rejecting the RMA. Not "you installed an operating system".
I don't understand why there is such an obsession with their margins. How does that matter to me as a consumer in any way? I am purchasing a product. I expect to be able to return it if it is defective. Period. I do not care why they lie and refuse to accept a return on defective product. I do not care how much or how little money they make. I care that they are an honest business I can trust. If you value doing business with companies based on how little money they make, you are welcome to choose to do business with companies by that criteria. Those of us with different criteria do not become objectively incorrect for using those other criteria for making our decisions.
> I don't understand why there is such an obsession with their margins.
Me neither. Their business model is their business, not their customers.
If they put in big letters on the website "if you install Linux, you can'tr return this machine for faulty", then i would have no objevction to them. But their behaviour of a one-off refund strikes me as an attempta at fraudulent damage limitation.
1. There is no telling how much (or little) of the situation and the discussion the original customer made available to the public and the consumerist.
2. Maybe Newegg sent her a canned response, and sometimes you learn that it's best to keep things general and not to enter into the specifics, because once you do, people start taking advantage of the situation.
My point is there are plenty of reasons why they can't, and shouldn't, accept working laptops in non-original condition back. Nor heat damaged ones with a non-original OS.
> I don't understand why there is such an obsession with their margins. How does that matter to me as a consumer in any way?
Because they already provided you with the lowest price, fast shipping, and a general return policy that works for 99% of the customers.
> I am purchasing a product. I expect to be able to return it if it is defective. Period.
Agreed. Except we don't really know much of anything about this particular case, other than what two biased parties have told us.
Though we do know that 1) the laptop boots up and probably works (70% of returns are 100% working) 2) it's being returned in a non-original state, and 3) even if the warrantee or return-policy was voided by the customer she still might be able to do the Manufacturers' Warranty.
Your "point" isn't actually a point if it is unrelated to the discussion. The issue is one of rejecting legit RMAs on the grounds that "you installed an operating system". Again, you are welcome to shop where you like. Just stop telling those of us who have told newegg "that's not acceptable and I won't be doing business with you" that we're doing something wrong.
There's a difference between boycotting the retailer and demanding that they accept a return.
Also, from their perspective, they sold you "a computer with Windows installed" and expect to receive the same in return, unless the reason for your return is the lack of said Windows.
Except that they already said "no, installing an OS doesn't void your warranty, that was just a mistake". But the people actually processing RMAs are clearly not aware of this. That's the problem. I can not trust the company to process an RMA, because they have demonstrated that they do not train their staff to do that job competently.
Warranty, Return Policy and One-Time-Exception are three different things.
Since the previous laptop had issues, and a shit-storm was kicked off, they said it was their mistake and that they will accept the return, even though it was being returned in a non-original state (one-time-exception).
This laptop apparently has no issues that they can detect, and was returned in a non-original state. Hence the RMA is not valid.
How is installing a new OS not a user action? Look, if you buy a piece of hardware, install software that damages it, and then expect to get a refund, you're out of your mind. The laptop was not defective, it was broken by the customer.
Who said it isn't? The issue is newegg said "no RMA for you because you installed an OS, we're not even going to look into the issue to see if it was related". Then they said "oh no, that rep just made a mistake, installing an OS is fine". But the reps doing RMAs clearly still don't know this policy, and still reject RMAs without even looking into them. I'm really not understanding why this very simple, easy to understand concept needs to be repeated over and over.
While I love Linux and use it for both work and home. I'm for Newegg. A policy is a policy and not all customers are skillful enough to reload a different OS. I don't think any Linux vendors(Dell, System76,etc) will happily accept returns after you installed Windows on it.
The best could be that we can buy machines with Linux pre-loaded, or certain distro certified. For instance, we choose a PC/laptop, and it's certified with Windows7 and Ubuntu 12.04 both, then you're safe to choose either, otherwise you're on your own.
Not to mention Newegg is just a market place instead of the vendor.
That would be reasonable if newegg listed an OS change as a reason for invalidating a warranty. The problem is their policy and public statements say it is completely ok, but privately they say it is not.
Newegg has stated that:
1. only modifications to the hardware invalidate the warranty
2: and newegg has specifically gone on the record to state that installing linux does not invalidate the warranty.
That's nonsense. First of all, there's basically no way that botching an OS install should be able to damage hardware, and for anything other than a hard drive problem the vast majority of retailers will accept returns with the drive removed (for privacy purposes). Even more importantly, though, the written Newegg policy allows customers to install a different OS without voiding the warranty; the problem is that Newegg is apparently doing a very bad job at educating their CSR's of what their policies actually are.
If this were in their policy, I would sort of agree. A return policy is not a warranty, and therefore a policy that disallowed returns after a major OS modification could potentially be reasonable.
The problem here is that Newegg is not stating this up front.
I've never had an issue with a mfg warranty in a case like this (most recommend not including the HD with returns anyway). I'm still a little confused as to why the customer didn't approach the mfg first.
> I don't think any Linux vendors(Dell, System76,etc) will happily accept returns after you installed Windows on it.
Citation, please? I am not aware of any other vendor with this limitation.
I see what you're saying, but how far do we take this? If I upgrade to Mountain Lion in July, am I no longer covered? Dual-boot to Windows? Seems ripe for abusing.
I agree, but Newegg didn't stand strong when the first case got some attention. They should have remained strong and just enforced the policy knowing that in 3-4 weeks most people would have forgot about the instance any ways.
It now becomes one of those cases where if you are trying to return the laptop you are just pissed off because you feel like they aren't doing everything that they can. It's a catch-22 in a way. You just got to be consistent.
If hardware fails and it is nothing to do with software (99.999999% of the time), it should be replaced under warranty. Full stop.
Perhaps they should give an option for your warranty to either include both hardware and software, or JUST include hardware, and so they will ignore any software changes (but also not, for instance, fix your Windows partition)
>Newegg: [Yes]
Hilarious. Is the left hand not talking to the right or what?
From the consumerist's first followup:
>Thanks, Newegg, and let's hope that no one has to get out the Internet pitchforks and torches to get your employees to follow their own policies from here out.