For me it was Musk. I had a finger on the trigger for an M3, which is an amazing car for the price, but then he just didn't know when to stop talking and I've sort of lost a lot of that enthusiasm. So now I'm waiting for the legacy brands to step up, which they unfortunately aren't really doing.
In 2022 I bought my first EV, a BMW i4. It was an impressive am car and still is: second only to Tesla Model 3 when it comes to efficiency and superior to Tesla in terms of features and driving assistant systems.
BMW and Tesla both refreshed their i4 and Model 3 models las year. And the improvement in the Model 3 has been noticeable: better efficiency and range, also better driving dynamics and added features. BMW has barely changed anything, same motors and batteries, just a slightly newer infotainment system and new aesthetic. Not only that, some features are actually gone like the laser lights.
The FSD in the Tesla has improved also lots since 2022, while BMW Driving Assistant is still the same we had in 2022. Robust, but no new features.
I think Tesla is really doing a great job of improving their vehicles compared to legacy OEMs. I guess the i4 will only get real improvements with their next model in 2027.
I had a model Y before, and after it became clear that I'm not extending my lease (thanks Mr. Musk), I test-drove a few alternatives, Mustang EV, IONIQ 5 & 6, etc. Ended up getting BMW I4, and man, this beats Tesla in every way. Yes, software might be not as perfect, but as a car to drive, it's so much better.
I don't see any way for Tesla to survive as a company unless they can completely disconnect from Musk. In urban/leftist/yuppie circles- the only people that actually buy high end EVs new- it is socially taboo now to buy a Tesla, and the people already owning them are embarrassed, and hoping to get rid of them soon. The cybertruck is especially taboo and called names like the "incElCamino."
I think there is a big potential to capture the rural more right leaning market with EVs that have more range, offroad ability, and torque than ICE vehicles- but this will be done by brands like Jeep, Ford, and Scout through EVs with ICE range extenders that can operate outside of a charging network.
> I don't see any way for Tesla to survive as a company unless they can completely disconnect from Musk. In urban/leftist/yuppie circles- the only people that actually buy high end EVs new- it is socially taboo now to buy a Tesla, and the people already owning them are embarrassed, and hoping to get rid of them soon. The cybertruck is especially taboo and called names like the "incElCamino."
If you come to the richer southern cities the picture is very different than what you describe. I'm living in Nashville TN right now and there are Teslas everywhere. Many Republicans proudly have big lifted pickup trucks and Teslas (and a LOT of cybertrucks).
So while becoming an outspoken culture warrior may have cost Musk's brand some support in blue states, it has dramatically increased its appeal in "real America" where people love showing off their masculinity through their vehicles.
I suspect the Cybertruck will dominate the legacy auto makers in the EV pickup segment.
You're wildly exaggerating. There are only ~33k EV registrations in the entire state of TN [1], or just over 1% of all registrations in the state [2].
I don't doubt that most of them are Teslas, but they're hardly everywhere. Also as of October, they'd only delivered about 27k Cybertrucks globally, so even if you assume 5% went to TN (which seems ridiculously unlikely), that's ~1500 vehicles out of the literally hundreds of thousands of non-EV trucks in the state.
I certainly wouldn't say that - I would say that here in "real America" they (meaning rich or "middle class" people with disposable income who engage in the culture war stuff) want to buy vehicles that are good at owning the libs.
It used to be that owning the libs was pretty simple, use more gasoline in a big lifted pickup truck. But now there are other ways to own the libs... you can also buy your electric cars from a rich guy who owns the libs.
I'm being reductive, but there's a strong cultural element to vehicle ownership. To be less glib about it, vehicle ownership is very much tied to identity in sprawly rural America.
In the south today, the big lifted trucks are both status symbols and cultural signifiers. They immediately and visibly identify people as part of the southern / "rural" group (in quotes because many people in this group engage in performative rurality, while in reality they live in sprawly suburbs).
Members of this tribe are also naturally are more inclined to identify as Republican.
So things like the Cybertruck appeal in multiple ways; as Musk is such a vocal Republican, his cool factor goes up with the subset of this group that is extremely into politics. This is one pathway to adoption.
Outside of that, the Cybertruck is a massive pickup truck, and it is very expensive. Vehicle size and expense are both ways to signal status to people in this culture. This is another pathway to adoption.
Hence, I believe that it will become very popular in these areas.
I think the Tesla cars initially succeeded because they proved to suburbanites looking to display their status via a vehicle that electric cars could be "cool" and not "lame." Now, "culturally rural" people have their own equivalent.
It is beyond out of touch to not see how one of the most profitable and successful car companies of all time is going to survive. Tesla is doing amazing and isn’t slowing down.
Are they doing well? For example Toyota sells 5x as many cars, but has 1/5th the market cap. Low sales but high market cap is normally a dangerous situation to be in unless you're sure you have some massive tech advantage that will keep you growing fast. Tesla sales leveled off a few years ago, and now show no indication of ever catching up with the other car companies.
At first they were way ahead technology wise with the first really practical EVs on the market, but seem to be falling behind fast. For example Porsche/VW/Audi released 800v production cars 4 years before Tesla did- and those cars still beat all of the S models on a real track with way lower paper specs. Waymo/Google has self driving tech that works demonstrably way better than Teslas. The offroad vehicle/traction systems on the Cybertruck don't work as well as any of the established 4x4 companies products- or for that matter even any of the 20 year old high end SUVs like a Porsche Cayenne or a Land Cruiser.
What is their advantage that justifies the insanely high evaluation with low sales?
> Are they doing well? For example Toyota sells 5x as many cars, but has 1/5th the market cap. Low sales but high market cap is normally a dangerous situation to be in unless you're sure you have some massive tech advantage that will keep you growing fast.
I think 15 billion profit on 97 billion revenue is doing pretty well.
Ford is 4b profit on 176b revenue. VW is 16bn on 322.
> Tesla sales leveled off a few years ago
2024 is the first year since 2011 with a decline (a 1.1% decline), each year prior saw a considerable increase.
Show me any non-Tesla that drives itself 100% of the way to my destination, any destination, from my garage without intervention. My Tesla does this literally daily and I can’t accept that they’re behind in tech when this is the case
Hyundai seems to be the top of the EV game currently. We went with an Ioniq 5. Unfortunately not a ton of EV sedan options out there, yet, but they're starting to come online, with stuff like the Ioniq 6.
The Ioniq 5 has a low reliability according to Consumer Reports. Lower than their gas models. I suppose it is all the ICCU and 12V battery failures. Same story with the KIA EV6. I guess those ended up with better reliability than Rivian, for what it is worth.
I rented seven EVs this last summer (h/t Turo) and we ended up with a Kia EV6. Not a perfect car, but one my family loved more than the others. If we wanted something larger, the EV9 is also fantastic.
I'd recommend trying ones out and picking one. We're not at China-levels of EV options but many do exist at most price/luxury levels. Our other car is a Ford Focus EV which I wish they still sold (I got mine new for $20k about 7 years ago).
I looked at those as well, but the ICCU issues were enough to deter me. I do a fair amount of highway driving and the thought of suddenly dropping from highway speeds to 12 MPH was somewhat chilling.
As an owner of a used EV6, I can tell you this issue has caused some concern and I do think it's a real but rare issue.
However, my calculation is this: It's a 1% impacted issue. Replacing with an AGM battery drastically reduces the issues. Recalls somewhat mitigate this issue further. Apparently reducing your L2 charging rate to < 7kW also reduces this. At the end if you are still unlucky, the ICCU is almost always covered by warranty but replacement is annoying and can take months.
To mitigate I plan to replace my stock 12V with AGM, and buy a portable battery starter.
I think that's solved by a recall, so if the car you're looking at is either new or has already had the 12V battery serviced, it should not be an issue.
When I looked into it, people who had the recall performed had it happen again. This made me suspect that they were trying to correct a hardware problem with software, or that the software was somehow able to damage the hardware if it wasn't updated in time.
That was on the EV6, though, but they share the same eGMP platform.
Mine's in today, Reddit has reports of people being told as late as March. Hyundai Finance is working with customers who cannot get the fix in the near term
2025 Ioniq 5s have the NACS port (only in NA markets, obviously). I don't think the 2025 Ioniq 6s do, though they probably will for the next model year. Like you said, CCS-equipped cars can use the Tesla network with a NACS-to-CCS adapter.
This is a sentiment I’ve had echoed across most of my techie friends. We probably relate more to what Musk says (and US politics towards the tech sector) than the average car buyer, and it is just a major turnoff.
Same, and now I'm actually leaning towards a Plug-in hybrid because the legacy brands are so bad (bad range, bad charging network).
What a monumental dissolution in brand. I can only hope its felt quickly enough by Tesla's bottomline so it can a) either be reversed, or b) be an example to future entrepreneurs.
P.S: a) could be accelerated with some demonstrated excellence in Tesla Autopilot, it's possible, that would bring me back.
I was all set on a model-3, but found the quality lacking at the price. Bought a BMW 3-series hybrid at a comparable price, and is so happy about my choice. Their fully electric cars are fine too.
With the dystopian turn of Musk, I will never consider a Tesla again.
My friends with Teslas seems to have more than their fair share of issues too. I haven’t yet had any problems with my car so far, at 90000km total, with 40000km on the electric motor.
I went with an Equinox EV. It's not outstanding in any particular area, but it's good in all of them. It drives like a car with a battery and not a battery with wheels.
I doubt you did. You just don’t like Musk, and now you are larping as a Tesla buyer to make people think there is some big group that are going to punish Elon for not matching their views.
Outside far leftists, people are still buying and enjoying Teslas. The difficulties in Europe aren’t related to Elon’s politics, you just wish they were.
An M3 is a BMW. If you are talking about Teslas the car is called a Model 3. You can’t shorten it to M3 because that’s already a car. This is why a Musk didn’t get to call it Model E like he wanted to. It sounds too much like a Ford.
Among EV enthusiasts, M3 is absolutely a Tesla Model 3. I know what a BMW M3 is (there was a time when I really wanted one), and I understand how much of a petrolhead icon the car is, I just don't care anymore.
I think the commenter was sarcastically referencing their historical roots as a Nazi project (Volkswagen) and Nazi-supporting, Hilter-inspiring, anti-semite (Henry Ford)
You can always get a used Tesla. I'm in a similar boat - FSD 13 looks really good and if it actually gets to 'personal driver' territory, it'd be hard not buy a Tesla.
I spent a month in Germany a few years ago. The German government had put up some strong incentives to prompt the move to EV's. Germany has a large car manufacturing base, and those incentives meant every one of them had EV's.
Every German EV I saw was an ICE chassis retrofitted with batteries and an electric motor. For example they all had the hump intruding into the cabin space for the non-existent exhaust. Almost none had a frunk - it was needed for batteries or something. As a consequence the purpose built Tesla's were miles ahead. I had no idea why anybody bought these German EV's at time time, but it seemed like most Germans did.
If that's changed and Europeans making great EV's is what is driving down the sales of Tesla's then that is great news. But I live in Australia, and Tesla sales are having their edge taken off them here too. We don't make cars. There is one, and only country making a material dent in Tesla's EV sales. That is EV's from China. (Tesla's EV's sold here are also made in China, of course.) It's mostly because of price.
Despite the noise in the comments, I haven't met a single person who based their decision on Musk's personality. The things that tilt them towards other brands are price and a more conventional design (things like indicator stalks, displays in front of the driver, rain sensors that work). But these other brands are new, and meanwhile Tesla has very impressive service (BYD has suffered from widely publicised failures), an impressive charger network, and a track record. For now Tesla still dominates.
But the real story is China is made just about every EV sold here. The ICE's we import are made in a variety of places Japan, USA, Europe, and recently a few from China. But if this trend continues there will only be one country making the cars we import in 10 years time.
While this is an oversimplification, my understanding is that it roughly goes like this;
BMWs are decent. Other European brands' EVs are a bit of a joke. Korean ones are solid. US big manufacturers are somewhere inbetween. The Hyundai Ioniq series is probably the best value for money on average for those who don't want a Tesla or Chinese EV.
