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The invented Chinese names of the 2019 Canadian federal election – ranked (nikobell.ca)
213 points by firloop on Oct 21, 2019 | hide | past | favorite | 94 comments



As a native Chinese speaker, I find several points in the article a bit awkward to comprehend, especially when you flip the table around. It might be likely less than sophisticated for Françoise Duchamps to call herself Fran Swazzy in English (I don’t think so), but I struggle to think she’d have trouble using simply “Frances” without a last name if she goes to a hypothetical English-speaking place where residents don’t understand much French.

I also don’t understand the author’s lack of love to just using the straight phonetic translation (either first-last or only first/last name).[1] Sure it’s nice to have a Chinese name that sounds familiar, but would you expect your (say) Indian immigrant colleague to adapt an English-sounding name when moving to Canada? Yeah, we don’t mind you using your native name either.

Oh and the semantics don’t matter either. Lietarally zero native Chinese speaker would read 希拉里 and think “huh, hope pull inside, wierd name”, we recognise immediately it’s foreign, just like you know Kazuhiko and Jinping don’t have Bible reference. Heck, we don’t even think too much about meanings of our own names that often. When’s the last time you see a guy named Chris and think how he bears Christ?

Anyway. I don’t dislike the article, especially the latter part where the author digs into actual examples. It is always a fun exercise to read Chinese names, I do that a lot as well. But it’s just that, fun exercise. That’s not how we read names in daily life, and as long as you’re happy with your Chinese-character-spelled names (be it Chinese-style or otherwise), we are happy to use it. Over-interpreting people’s names (especially non-native speakers’), now that’s unsophisticated.

---

[1]: I am Taiwanese, so maybe there’s some cultral different to communities with China origin.


The author is not Chinese. It is common for people who study a foreign language to get a passion for things that to them seems more authentic.

For example, many learners of Japanese consider English loan words inferior to Sino Japanese words, even though in modern Japanese, they are equally Japanese.


I was always amused that "pine" street in San Francisco is transliterated to "plank" in chinese. Broadway, incidentally, is "avenue of 100 old people".


Another example: the Chinese name for SF is Laojinshan (老金山) afaik, which translates to Old Gold Mountain and sounds nothing like Hispanic/English name. I think it dates back to the California gold rush


It's 旧金山 (jiu jin shan), but otherwise you're right.


And in case anyone was wondering, the "New Gold Mountain" is another name for Melbourne[0].

[0] https://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%96%B0%E9%87%91%E5%B1%B1


The Melbourne Gold rush was in the 1850s-1860s so the "new" part has become inaccurate.

See also: "New Forest", England, 1079.


>The Melbourne Gold rush was in the 1850s-1860s so the "new" part has become inaccurate.

It also happened just a few years (very much less than a decade) after the California Gold Rush, and there were other gold rushes after that, so I'm not sure why it's "new" either.


啊呀, it seems I wasn't awake enough yet when posting. Thank you for the correction.


re: Broadway - it's because the Chinese name is borrowed from NYC's Broadway - 百老匯.

Chinese translators really like to translate names and locations which impart some meaning but still sound kinda similar to actual word. Bai-lao-hui sounds kinda like Broadway to a Chinese person. Also, presumably NYC's Broadway is an avenue of a hundred old people because affluent (older) people go to watch musicals more.


Yes, I’d agree that in general the clean and widely accepted thing to do would just be to transliterate the names using the usual set of naming characters. Chinese people really do not care about the semantics of foreign names, just as Westerners will usually ignore the connotations of foreign names (unless especially weird, e.g. “Long Wang”).

However, in the communities where these politicians are campaigning, there’s a really sizable number of Chinese voters, and I think the thinking is that a more native Chinese name will be more memorable for people. Foreign names are often less memorable than native ones, and if someone doesn’t define their Chinese name at all, multiple transliterations can arise which affects searchability. After all, as a politician, your name is a big part of your brand.

If you accept that premise, then spending time to choose an appropriate name is an important step - after all, semantics do matter to some extent for native names in any language. Perhaps not to the extent shown in this article, but (for example) you would not want to accidentally choose a name that misgenders you or (worse) offends your voters.


> I also don’t understand the author’s lack of love to just using the straight phonetic translation (either first-last or only first/last name)

Yes, this is especially strange given that the Chinese script evolution was mainly phonetically driven. Most characters cames from writing a word with a same sounding word then disambiguate it by adding a determinative (radical). Even in the PRC simplification scheme, one of the key method was to replace an existing character by one that is read the same (which overload the meaning of a single character).

> Sure it’s nice to have a Chinese name that sounds familiar, but would you expect your (say) Indian immigrant colleague to adapt an English-sounding name when moving to Canada? Yeah, we don’t mind you using your native name either.

In the Indian case probably not, but in my (European) country people are often glad that Chinese people have a local name, even if they find it funny. Chinese phonology can be quite hard for foreigners, and the pinyin system with consonants that are not transparent (h, j, q, x, zh, ch) and hide some vowel letters doesn't help at all when names are written down. I noticed for instance that I'm the only foreigner calling my Taiwanese girlfriend by her Chinese name or a derivative, while other people don't even ask her given name past the English one she chose for herself.


>Sure it’s nice to have a Chinese name that sounds familiar, but would you expect your (say) Indian immigrant colleague to adapt an English-sounding name when moving to Canada?

I remember watching a comedian doing a bit about this phenomenon of people adopting names from other cultures, where there were two Caucasian ladies at an ashram, both called Lakshmi, and an Indian lady by the name of Pam. I wish I could find a video of this.


I’m a Chinese language learner (native English speaker) and I was also kind of surprised by some points in the article. Listing out “Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton” struck me as a particularly weird example - no Chinese newspaper would ever give that full name - they’d probably just refer to her as 希拉里. I enjoyed the article but it definetly misunderstood some things.


The author literally said that he read that in a newspaper, so one of you is wrong.


Spend 20+ years in Taiwan and China here: most media use 希拉里.

There might be specific conventions which compel them to print the full name (if it's a very formal thing?) but they'd do it once maybe, then revert to 希拉里.


> The prototypical Chinese name has three characters, a single surname followed by a two-character given name. A smaller number of Chinese people only have a single given name, and a very few have two surname characters.

I'm not sure if this is correct. IIRC, in at least some areas/families, it's a tradition to alternate between giving a one or two character name from generation to generation. So if your parent has a two character given name, you'll have a one character name, and vice-versa.

Another interesting characteristic of Chinese names is that given names are very diverse and varied, while family names come from a small set (something like a hundred or so). This is opposite from the West (or at least America) where given names are pretty restricted (e.g. lots of Johns and Emilys) but family names have a lot of variation (probably due to all the immigration).


>>> The prototypical Chinese name has three characters, a single surname followed by a two-character given name. A smaller number of Chinese people only have a single given name, and a very few have two surname characters.

>I'm not sure if this is correct.

It's not. The distribution of one- and two-character given names is pretty even in China.

>Another interesting characteristic of Chinese names is that given names are very diverse and varied, while family names come from a small set (something like a hundred or so). This is opposite from the West (or at least America) where given names are pretty restricted (e.g. lots of Johns and Emilys) but family names have a lot of variation (probably due to all the immigration).

You know, maybe we should change how we think about the ordering. Instead of family-given or given-family, it's clearly restricted-arbitrary.


From the friendly article: "As in other languages, there are always exceptions."

Wikipedia goes into extreme detail: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_name


I would not characterize the number of people who have single given names as "small". This also differs a lot by region.


it is missing one option. in some areas the middle character is a generation name. that is, that character is the same for all members of that generation.

so the thee characters would be: family-generation-given name


Looks like the site fell over.

Internet archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20191021142028/www.nikobell.ca/t...


This is awesome.

My Chinese name is 司馬文 "Sima Wen", with the surname being that of several series of famous Chinese historians, emperors, and generals, and my given name meaning culture.

My teachers were very proud of that one because it closely resembles my English name and they said it sounded dignified. I can only assume they knew what they were talking about.


During my first attempt at grad school, my fellow students (all mainland Chinese) informed me my name was "ugly" in Chinese. So, I chose 田十牛 "Tián Shí Niú", after the fact I'm a bit from the country, and my favorite character's name (Number 10 Ox). They thought this was hilariously rustic.


Do you use that name with actual Chinese people, or is it more of a during-Chinese-class thing?

I would feel weird about giving myself a rare and ultra-high-prestige name. But, I have no idea how the Chinese would perceive it.


I would probably assume he's just really into Romance of the Three Kingdoms or other historical dramas where the 司馬 surname is common. Or that his real name is Zimmerman.


> Or that his real name is Zimmerman.

I've read that a number of Chinese with the surname 欧阳 [Ouyang] logically chose the English surname O'Young, confusing a lot of people who were led by the name to expect someone more Irish.


I was a Chinese Mandarin linguist in the Army for five years, many, many years ago.

My teachers at DLI were really into historical dramas. I'm more into shows with lasers and robots.


>I would feel weird about giving myself a rare and ultra-high-prestige name.

Er... 司馬 isn't that rare, and people would rather advise you to select a rare but prestigious family name, rather than a rare and unknown one.

It's like given names in English: if you pick a rare and unknown name (or even a common one with an unusual spelling), people are just going to go "huh?"


i very much like how "martin" is translated into chinese:

马丁 not only captures the english sounds somewhat reasonably, but it also surprisingly captures the meaning in an interesting way: martin is based on mars, the god of war, and is also a famous figure in christian history as a roman soldier on a horse.

the chinese characters are: 马(ma): horse, and 丁(ding):soldier

you can hardly get any closer with a resemblance of the meaning in both languages.


Simon Wayne?


It's interesting that Jagmeet Singh's "nom de Chine" in Cantonese is 駔勉誠 (roughly, "dzong min sing"), which sounds a lot more like his real name than the Mandarin ("zang mian cheng") does.


Good point. Many folks will be reading the Chinese names in Cantonese.


Does Canada have a large Chinese immigrant population? I'm curious as to why these would be on campaign ads.


Vancouver is special since it's popular destination for rich people from hong kong/china to hide their wealth. They buy up a lot of property:

> Chinese investors bought about 70% of free-standing houses on the west side of Vancouver in a six-month period

And 40% of the population is chinese:

> 40% of the residents of a large portion of Southeast Vancouver are Chinese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Canadians_in_Greater_V...


> And 40% of the population is chinese:

>> 40% of the residents of a large portion of Southeast Vancouver are Chinese.

So... 40% of the population of Vancouver are not Chinese, as you seem to imply with your intro to a quote that specifically contradicts your implication?


Yea I probably shouldn't have used a quote there. The number ranges from 20% to 50% depending on which part of vancouver you look at. Point is that they aren't a minority there.


Serious question, is 25% really not considered a minority?

As an average across Vancouver, are Chinese really 25%+ of the population?


Assuming your parent meant "not a small minority". I don't have numbers in front of me, but having lived in and near Vancouver most of my life, I wouldn't be surprised if close to that percentage had Chinese origins. Regardless, it's enough people that it's certainly worth candidates' time to consider them.


> The 2011 Census found the racial and ethnic makeup of Vancouver was:

European Canadian: 46.2% Chinese: 27.7% South Asian: 6% Filipino: 6% Southeast Asian: 3% Japanese: 1.7% Latin American: 1.6% Mixed visible minority: 1.5% Korean: 1.5% Aboriginal: 2% (1.3% First Nations, 0.6% Metis) West Asian: 1.2% Black: 1% Arab: 0.5%

http://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/vancouver-popu...

And some suburbs have a much higher percentage. Richmond (pop ~200k) has over 50% of it's population claim Chinese descent, and

> Nearly three quarters (74.1 per cent) of Richmondites identify with having some sort of Asian origin.

https://www.richmond-news.com/news/chinese-reach-majority-in...

[edit] - Which I think is awesome, in part because of the absolutely amazing food/restaurants we have here :)


Your question presupposes that folks of Chinese descent in Canada are immigrants. There's been a strong Chinese community in the area since before 1900. As a comparison, my great-great grandparents emigrated from Italy in the 1920s. It's quite typical for Canadians to retain their cultural identity and ancestral language post-immigration; the notable exception being indigenous peoples who were forced to assimilate. Where my family immigrated to the US and abandoned our language, I later immigrated to Canada, I was shocked to discover an Italian community where folks are still raising their kids to speak Italian after generations.


Yes, but these kids learn some spoken Italian (actually very often in the '20's and until maybe the '70's some specific italian dialect) while they have education ad everyday experiences outside the family in either French or English.

So, besides the high percentage of Chinese people in Vancouver, isn't the point about how many of them can vote but cannot read English?


This is even more surprising. Thank you for correcting my assumption, this is fascinating.


This post ain't about "Canada". It's about Metro Vancouver.

I think to say it has "a large Chinese immigrant population" would probably be an understatement? None-Chinese would be a minority in Richmond for example.


Yes, people of Chinese origin are the second largest single visible minority group in the country, at about 4.5% of population. South Asian origin is about 5.5%.


These are all from the Vancouver greater metro area, which was 20.6% of Chinese ancestry based on 2016 census data. (Richmond, one of the cities in that metro area, is 53% Chinese ancestry, and Burnaby, where several of the examples are from, is 33.9% Chinese ancestry.)


Yes, particularly in BC where the author is from.


Richmond, BC is North America's most Asian city.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-radio-and-tv-18149316



Richmond has entire malls where you will not find any English language. I do not believe that is the case in Cupertino. Also, Canada's approach to multiculturalism allows this to flourish, whereas America's "melting pot" almost makes minority heritage a quiet shame. Even though the US Census says Cupertino is "66% Asian" I just don't think it is at all the same as Richmond, which has large areas that really feel like you're in a Chinese city.


The BBC article is probably using Asian to mean Chinese (or nearby), while Cupertino's statistics will count Indian (and nearby) in that total too.


> count Indian (and nearby)

... So, they count Asian as Asian?


Around these parts, "Asian" is shorthand for "East Asian", ie Chinese, etc. "South Asian" is sometimes used for the Indian subcontinent, although oddly enough around here people from India often refer to themselves as "EI", meaning "East Indian". I guess it's all contextual.

For sure, Richmond is the most East Asian city in North America.


I understand what you mean, but when Vancouver locals say "asian", they really mean "east asian" (Chinese/Japanese/Korea). I live in Surrey, a Vancouver suburb, where ethnic Indian is about 30%-40% of population. The local newspaper often refers them as "South Asian community".

But I'm surprised that BBC use "Asian" to refer "East Asian". I'm under the impression that in UK, they use "Asian" to refer "South Asian".


UK person here. Many (most?) people would say you were "Asian" of you were from anywhere in Asia apart from the Indian subcontinent.


IDEA: A site that creates a good Chinese name either from your name or totally from scratch, with good visualization option to tweak 10-20 factors. Uses AI algorithms trained on nuances of names. If you pay extra, you can have the auto-generated name tweaked by an expert, someone like the author of this post. Sites like this exist (e.g. https://www.mandarintools.com/chinesename.html) but are primitive.


That's a good idea ;-P I've been working on it but it's only for our internal use at this time. Chinese names are also required in some counties in California. I shared the following in our blog: The California State Legislature passed a bill this year (and it was approved by the Governor on July 12) that requires phonetic transliterations of candidates’ alphabet-based names to appear on ballots and ballot materials in jurisdiction required to translate ballot materials into character-based languages. https://service.goodcharacters.com/daily/20190701-ab-57-cand...


> requires phonetic transliterations of candidates’ alphabet-based names to appear on ballots and ballot materials in jurisdiction required to translate ballot materials into character-based languages

In my experience, Chinese versions of foreign words, including foreign names, usually don't approach the sound of the original as closely as Chinese phonology allows. That is, they aren't really meant as "phonetic transliterations"; there are other options available purely within Chinese that would approximate the original sound more closely.[1]

Instead, the goal seems to be that you're in the right ballpark on the sound, and then you tweak the name for other factors such as character semantics while staying somewhere in the ballpark.

And of course, once a name is conventionalized, you'd want to use that rather than innovating a new version.

[1] Of course it's possible in general that while my foreign ears think a different Chinese syllable would better match the foreign one, the Chinese disagree and really believe they are using the closest available match. There are plenty of ready examples, such as Coca-Cola, where this is obviously not the case.


I recommend authors and public figures to decide on their own official Chinese names. Unless a well-known person declares his or her Chinese name, Chinese reporters have to make one up or see how others transliterate it. The Chinese language is full of homophones; thus, there are literally thousands of ways an alphabetical name can be converted into Chinese. Unlike most other languages, Chinese has no standard way to translate names.

There is no one central authority in regard to Chinese names. Reporters in China, Hong Kong, or Taiwan — each of these regions is its own trademark jurisdiction — often have their own ideas. This results in multiple Chinese names for the same person, each with its own meanings and connotations that often are not the best.


I presume most new translations now target Mandarin, but I wonder whether some older western imports got their names in Cantonese, is this a thing?

And likewise for candidate names -- IIRC lots of people moved to BC from HK, but perhaps a minority by now?


> I wonder whether some older western imports got their names in Cantonese, is this a thing?

Yes, it is the norm for older loanwords. Compare Mandarin jia-na-da [Canada] from Cantonese ga-la-da, or Mandarin mo-xi-ge [Mexico] from Cantonese mak-sai-go.

EDIT: it's worth observing that the Chinese themselves are generally not aware that the older loanwords came through Cantonese.


This also applies in the opposite direction for English loanwords of Chinese origin, which are often Cantonese. E.g. bok choy is from 白菜 (white vegetable), which is pronounced baak6 coi3 in Cantonese (Jyutping romanization) but báicài in Mandarin (Pinyin romanization). Note that Mandarin has lost the final -k of the first syllable, which is retained in the loan.


I wouldn't affirm Canada transliteration come from Cantonese without serious proof. Not too long ago (about a century [1]), the initial now romanized by <j> was written with <k>. I'm not specialist of the phonetic changes that happen during that time in the involved languages and dialects, but it is totally credible that 加拿大 comes from Mandarin. The initial involved in 加 seems to have change "recently". This also explain the Peking/Beijing thing.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFEO_Chinese_transcription


The Peking / Beijing thing is indeed the same thing you see in Canada / jianada. Peking / Nanking / etc. do not come from Mandarin.

Read your own link:

> The transcription of the EFEO did not borrow its phonetics from the national official Standard Mandarin. Rather, it was synthesized independently to be a mean of Chinese dialects, and shows a state of sounds a little older in form


Reading is good, understanding the implications is better. Standard Mandarin is newer than the period at which Canada would appear as a loanword in Chinese, so of course it is not drawn from that language. But that doesn't mean it is Cantonese either. Moreover, I wrote Mandarin (a Chinese languages with a variety of dialects), not Standard Mandarin (the language taught at school).

In particular, for the Beijing case, South Mandarin is involved: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_postal_romanization#Ma....


The Cantonese for "Canada" is gaa1 naa4 daai6 in Jyutping transcription (your transcription of "Mexico" is fine though).


I based the Canada on oral communication and the Mexico on textual communication. I've never studied Cantonese.

It feels safe to say the second syllable beginning with N in Mandarin was just good luck though. I might have swapped out the N for L anyway if I had known the Jyutping.

An example of a distinction that would have come through fine English -> Mandarin being lost by apparent transmission through Cantonese exists in Los Angeles, 洛杉矶. The Mandarin is luo-shan-ji, which annoys me every time I need to understand or produce the name. Mandarin has no problem distinguishing s from sh.


Mandarin and Cantonese, two of several Chinese dialects, share the same Chinese writing system based on Chinese characters. But the same character is pronounced differently depending on the dialect. So a name can be transliterated in "Cantonese way" or "Mandarin way," yes.


There are generally official conventionalized versions of Western names. The Western name space isn't all that large.


For those who were unaware, Canada is having its federal election today. Its no-fuss nature is an interesting contrast to the shenanigans of our southern neighbour.


>”Chinese has no bite-sized phonetic components with which to build foreign sounds...”

That’s not entirely true. There is bopomofodutunuh [1]. Maybe it’s not as well known as Kana.

[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo


That's mostly used in Taiwan for typing, I don't think it's really common in China. I could be wrong though.

Also, I think it would be weird to have a name made of those characters. They're strictly phonetic -- I've never seen a Chinese name made out of bopomofo letters.


Bopomofo was phased out as the official transliteration system in the PRC in 1958 and replaced by Pinyin. Most Mainland Chinese probably won't be able to read Bopomofo. And if you're going to use an alphabetic writing system like Pinyin, you might as well use the original orthography and skip the need for transliteration altogether.


> I’ve collected names from the sublime—Vancouver city council candidate Jean Swanson’s (金玉鹅) beautifully phonetic and semantic rendering of her name—

Was that joke? At least in Japanese, the two first are a very common colloquial for testicles.


I don't think it means that in Chinese. However I agree it is not a decent name.

金 = gold/golden, 玉 = jade, 鹅 = goose

Usually the more chars resembling wealth in your name, the less educated family you may be from. Basically it just shows your eagerness to become rich. Not to mention the last character, which is rarely used char in names, who wants to name their child "goose"?

金 and 玉 are actually common in names, but usually combined with other good words like 诺(promise), 心(heart),... something like that. Decent names are not that straightforward and I think it may be the same in the western world.


>鹅 = goose

鹅 can refer to quite a few birds in Chinese[0], and in this case, since the article noted:

Vancouver city council candidate Jean Swanson’s (金玉鹅) [has a] beautifully phonetic and semantic rendering of her name

鹅 is probably referring to 天鹅 ("swan")[1], which is part of Swanson's family name.

A bit of an explainer: In names, a word that's usually two characters long is often truncated. For example, the name of the kirin (麒麟) is often used in names, but is often truncated to 麟 (麒 is also possible) so that another character (e.g. a verb) can be introduced, e.g. Alan Tam's given name[2], 詠麟, means to rhapsodise about the kirin.

>Usually the more chars resembling wealth in your name, the less educated family you may be from.

Swanson's an anti-poverty activist,[3] so perhaps that may explain something about why 金玉 might have been appealing as a reference to 金玉滿堂.

Her party "has traditionally been associated with tenants, environmentalists, and the labour movement"[4], so I imagine that perhaps she wanted something green in the name as well, and jade (玉) fits the bill.

[0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%B5%9D#Chinese

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A9%E9%B5%9D#Chinese

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Tam

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Swanson

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_Progressive_Elect...


She should use 鹄(swan) instead of 鹅(goose). Yes people don't usually use this character for swan and call the thing sky goose instead, but most people know of it as it's part of the idiom: 燕雀安知鸿鹄之志.


>She should use 鹄(swan) instead of 鹅(goose). Yes people don't usually use this character for swan

I've never heard of or seen this character until today.

>most people know of it as it's part of the idiom: 燕雀安知鸿鹄之志.

"Most people" usually mean "people around me", so it's not indicative.

There are plenty of ethnic Chinese people not living in China who might not have heard of this idiom -- in part because their knowledge of Chinese may not be as deep as people who've gone through the Chinese education system -- and one of them had probably advised Swanson on her name choice.


>> I’ve collected names from the sublime—Vancouver city council candidate Jean Swanson’s (金玉鹅) beautifully phonetic and semantic rendering of her name

>Was that joke? At least in Japanese, the two first are a very common colloquial for testicles.

Probably not, although "beautifully phonetic [...] rendering" is a bit of a stretch: only her given name is phonetically rendered.

Whoever advised her on taking the name probably didn't know the Japanese colloquial meaning of 金玉, but was referencing the Chinese idiom 金玉滿堂[0]. It probably sounded good to Swanson because she's deeply concerned about poverty[1], but it feels like gilding the lily, because the whole name literally means "gold-and-jade goose/swan" (鹅 is probably referring to the "swan" in "Swanson", but "goose" seems to be what people landed upon in this thread).

[0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89%E6%BB%BF%E...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Swanson


I was curious, and it looks like it only has good connotations in Chinese: https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89/4846

Kintama was the first thing I thought of when looking at it though. "Goose balls"?


In Chinese, 玉 refers to a jade gem. I think the Japanese meaning encompasses any kind of roundish object, so the semantic distance to testicles is smaller. For a Chinese speaker, using 金玉 (gold+jade/precious) to describe testicles probably wouldn't be too strange, but the association is not quite as obvious as in Japanese.


>I think the Japanese meaning encompasses any kind of roundish object

As in Chinese, 金玉 also means "gold and jewels" in Japanese, i.e. treasure, so the semantic distance to testicles is not any smaller. Presumably someone might have heard of "family jewels".

>For a Chinese speaker, using 金玉 (gold+jade/precious) to describe testicles probably wouldn't be too strange

金玉 is used in the idiom 金玉满堂, which can either mean full of riches or knowledge,[1][2] so it would be rather strange.

[0] https://jisho.org/search/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89

[1] "形容财富极多,也形容学识丰富。" (Describes someone who's extremely wealthy, but can also describe someone who's full of knowledge.) https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89%E6%BB%A1%E5%...

[2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%87%91%E7%8E%89%E6%BB%BF%E...


After McDonald's (China) was acquired, McDonald's (Global) banned them from using McDonald's and its phonetic name 麥當勞 in China. It then changed its name to 金拱門, which literally means Golden Arches. Chinese people found it so hilarious that it went so viral. News got over nine billion views. It was such a success for marketing, but it doesn't hold the same profile as before.


They sure seem different than the ordinary McD in other countries.

The McD online ordering website in China is https://www.4008-517-517.cn -- apparently "517" sounds like "I want to eat".

They sell a "Land, Air, Sea Warfare" combo menu which sounds ominous, but apparently it's commonly known "secret menu" item on ordinary McDonalds combining a Big Mac, McChicken and the McFish.


So odd to see numerical URLs. There was an article here on HN about that a month or so ago.


5: wu, 1:yi, 7:qi

I:我:wo, want:要:yao, eat:吃:chi


If we expand the ranking to native historical names, I've always found the presence of somewhat derogatory or just absurd names among ancient Chinese figures fascinating and have a hard time fathoming why a parent would gives these to a child.

Note the following are not nicknames. These are given names.

Some I can chalk up to probably being purely phonetic spellings (不寿 a.k.a. Not-Long-Lived a king of Yue 越, who doesn't seem to have lived a particularly short life, but his date of birth is unknown). Others to their names later taking on negative connotations because of their own actions (嫪毐 Lao Ai where 毐 later became used to describe immoral people, presumably because he pretended to be a eunuch, slept with the mother of Qin Shihuangdi, the first emperor of China, and then led a failed revolution against the emperor's father, the king of Qin. His whole story is insane. He's a performer who does tricks with his large penis who got used in a game of political intrigue by Lu Buwei to protect Lu Buwei from the king of Qin.).

There still others that maybe had their names invented or twisted to suit stories. See for example 牛缺(Lacking Niu), a high-ranking scholar who appears in 吕氏春秋 (Master Lu's Spring and Autumn Annals) who goes on a trip through the desert, has everything stolen from him, and then is later killed by his robbers for good measure.

And yet others may be a result of trying to ward off evil or encourage modesty by intentionally giving children modest or unappealing names.

However, there's some, especially from the Warring States and earlier, that just seem to be inexplicably absurd names, with a large focus on "not."

晋黑臀 (Black-Butt Jin), also known by his title Duke Cheng of Jin. Perhaps he just had very literal parents.

叔孙不敢 (Doesn't-Dare/Not-Brave Shusun), a Lu court official. Sure his father tried and failed to help Duke Zhao of Lu, but the historical account makes it sound like that probably happened after Doesn't-Dare's birth.

韩不信/韩不佞 (Not-Credible Han/Unworthy Han). Granted the latter could also mean not given to sophistry, but still why would you take that chance with a child (both meanings are attested to in fairly ancient sources)?

秦非 (Not Qin, note order is flipped compared to English names so it's literally Qin Not). A disciple of Confucius.

皇非我 (Not-Me Huang). An official of the kingdom of Song. Again maybe a result of traditions trying to protect children from evil spirits, but I still find it rather amusing.

I've never really heard a good explanation for these, other than given names didn't really matter back then, rather it was adult honorary names (e.g. Zi or 字) that mattered more, which sure I guess I can believe. On the other hand, if that was the case I'd expect a cornucopia of awful names rather than the comparatively few, but still abnormally many, that I observe now.


>皇非我 (Not-Me Huang). An official of the kingdom of Song. Again maybe a result of traditions trying to protect children from evil spirits, but I still find it rather amusing.

I'd think that, since 皇 means "emperor", the name is protective in the sense that it's trying to say "no, no, I'm not the emperor".

>I've never really heard a good explanation for these, other than given names didn't really matter back then, rather it was adult honorary names (e.g. Zi or 字) that mattered more, which sure I guess I can believe. On the other hand, if that was the case I'd expect a cornucopia of awful names rather than the comparatively few, but still abnormally many, that I observe now.

Presumably, honorary names are the ones that are recorded, since they mattered more, not the awful names given by your parents or nicknames.


This came before the usage of 皇 to broadly mean emperor (i.e. during the Spring and Autumn period before the Qin dynasty), although it is used to describe the three mythical emperors. Here it's a clan name (氏), the common clan name of the kingdom of Song.

When recording names in historical records usually the given name as well as honorary name are given as well (honorary names of these figures are all recorded alongside these given names and are far more ordinary).


>This came before the usage of 皇 to broadly mean emperor (i.e. during the Spring and Autumn period before the Qin dynasty), although it is used to describe the three mythical emperors. Here it's a clan name (氏), the common clan name of the kingdom of Song.

Good to know.

>When recording names in historical records usually the given name as well as honorary name are given as well (honorary names of these figures are all recorded alongside these given names and are far more ordinary).

I think the unusual names you've come across are those that've slipped through the cracks. In any case, Chinese men back then would have been given a few names before they reached adulthood: usually, a "milk name" from their parents and another (usually more dignified) name when they attend school. The honorary name comes much later. The unusual names may have been "milk names" that survived the cull because the bearers might not have attended school, for example.

Of course, the practice hasn't survived into the modern age, but you still see this practice in the Arabic world, where people can have multiple aliases. So what you labelled as the "given name" need not be the "given name" we understand today, but just the name that's survived to adulthood that's not the honorary name, which comes later.


I definitely need a better Chinese name. How can I get one?


Consult Chinese speaking people? Try something then ask advices. Iterate quickly a few times and you should be set.


Native Mandarin speaker here - please take this article with a grain of salt as it reeks of whitesplaining.

I know the writer spent a bunch of time in China but a bunch of the "nuance" of how the names are interpreted seem either excessive or overinterpretive.

Just-another-opinion: As a Chinese person I actually prefer direct translations such as 川普 (Trump) as the name is usually pretty distinct, and people who share the same surname can have different characters to represent them.

Off-handedly, the characters used to translate a person's name often times can convey additional info - I can't think of too many specifics by country, but it's very easy to tell who's from Japan because they just take the kanji and use the Chinese translation (which butchers the pronunciation), or Korean because certain characters are almost always used for translating certain surnames (such as 金 -> Kim).


>please take this article with a grain of salt as it reeks of whitesplaining.

Agreed. Also, most Chinese names are "invented" anyway, so why is that in the headline?




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